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ISC Group Discussion Sign-up / Clarification on Bosch existing fire alarm industry
March 13, 2023

Schedule for Group Discussion Meetings at ISC [subject to dealer interest]  Meetings are limited to 6 dealers.  Contact Stacy Spector,Esq at 1 516 747 6700 x 304 or to reserve a spot.  Private meetings with Ken Kirschenbaum are still available – contact Stacy for appointment.  All meetings presently scheduled at Palazzo Prestige Lounge.

Group Meeting Schedule:
Tuesday, March 28 at 2:00pm-2:45pm: Employee Retention Credit Group Meeting with Mitch Reitman
Tuesday, March 28 at 3:00pm-3:45pm: Central Station Group Meeting with David Smith, COPS

Wednesday, March 29 at 10:00am-11:00am: Finance Group Discussion with Jim Wooster, Alarm Financial Services
Wednesday, March 29 at 3:30pm-4:00pm: AIN Buying Group with Stan Matysiak

Thursday, March 30 at 9:30 - 10:30am at ESA meeting room: Bassano Suite 2705 by convention floor:  Liability, insurance, horror stories, claims and other issues from perspective of Claims Administrator [Bart] and Alarm Defense Attorney [Ken].  Ken Kirschenbaum and Bart Didden.  This promises to be entertaining and informative.  You don't want to miss this.  

Thursday, March 30 at 11:00am-11:45: Alarm Brokers Group meeting with Rory Russell, Acquisition & Funding Services
Thursday, March 30 at 1:00pm-1:45pm: Contracts Group Meeting with Ken Kirschenbaum
Thursday, March 30 at 2:00pm-2:45pm: Insurance E&O Group Meeting with Shawn Iverson, The Insurance Center
Thursday, March 30 at 3:00pm-3:45pm: Sale or Purchase of Business Group Meeting with Ken Kirschenbaum


Private Meeting Schedule:
Tuesday, March 28 at 11:00am-11:30am- Booked
Tuesday, March 28 at 11:30am-12:00pm- Open
Tuesday, March 28 at 1:00pm-1:30pm- Open
Tuesday, March 28 at 1:30pm-2:00pm- Open

Wednesday, March 29 at 11:00am-11:30am- Booked
Wednesday, March 29 at 11:30am- 12:00pm- Open
Wednesday, March 29 at 12:00pm-12:30pm- Booked
Wednesday, March 29 at 1:00pm-1:30pm- Booked

Clarification on Bosch existing fire alarm industry from article on March 2, 2023
            Jeff Zwirn asked Bosch to comment on the article on March 2, 2023 and here is the Bosch response:

    The New effectivity date is June 30th 2024 for Engineering evaluation by UL and when the last time you can label products.
    The New effectivity date is June 30th 2024.
    This means you can sell product manufactured before this date, but you just cannot manufacture anything to the 6th edition after this date.

Therefore production stops, but does not prevent sales or installation.
The new revision adds a smoldering and flaming polyurethane foam test. It also adds a nuisance cooking test, the famous burger test.
You must not alarm on the burger (sic) test and immediately following you must alarm on the flaming polyurethane test.
I do not follow local and state codes. Individual states are free to enact their own codes, but they may not find product listed.
Normally the local building code references NFPA and NFPA references that product must be listed by a NRTL (UL/ETL/FM/Etc.).
Smoke alarms are different than Smoke detectors.  Smoke alarms are single station (Stand- alone). Smoke detectors are connected to a system.
Smoke alarm are listed to UL217 and the new revision will be 8th. With the same effectivity as UL268 7th. These are the typical residential smokes that will require a 10 year batteries and is non-removable.
Smoke detectors are listed to UL268 7th edition and do not need to meet these requirements and need to be maintained as outlined in NFPA-72.
James Mottorn
Marketing (BT-FIR/MKP-AM)
Bosch Security Systems, LLC
another comment
    The codes being referenced are referring to both smoke detectors and smoke alarms which are not the same thing.  Smoke alarms are line voltage devices (120vac installed by electrician) and smoke detectors are installed and connected to a low voltage fire or security system. The 10-year rule to replace smoke alarms does not apply to smoke detectors

Jason Alcock
Wayne Electric & Alarms
another comment
    Regarding Joe's email:
There are several kinds of "fire" detectors.
    "heat detectors" are used in locations which may have issues such as dust or moisture which would cause false alarms and thus prevent the use of "smoke" detectors. They trip when the heat reaches a preset temperature, such as 135 degrees F.
    "rate of rise detectors" will also trip at a preset temperature, but if the temperature is rising quickly such as in a flaming fire, then that will also trip them before it reaches the 135 degrees. This allows for quicker detection.
    "smoke detectors" do exactly that. When particles of smoke get inside the detector, a small light inside reflects onto a photocell and trips the detector. Other variations may have the light from the small internal light partially blocked by the smoke particles, which will also trip the detector. Some smoke detectors also have an included rate of rise or heat detector on them. Best of both worlds.
    However, some fires do not product much smoke and in the early phases of the fire, not much heat either. But all fires produce ions, which are products of combustion. So, some fire detectors are actually made as ion detectors. Many "smoke" detector have both features, ion detection AND smoke detection. These can give early warning of both smoky fires and non-smoky fires, such as the mattress (I believe) and for certain other kinds of clean burning fires.
    Note: A detector of any kind has to be approved to be used with any particular brand and model of fire alarm panel. For any detector in use, the manufacturer's documentation should be checked to verify that a particular detector and panel are approved to be used together. That approval is necessary in order to comply with the provisions and requirements that... the manufacturer's instruction be followed.
   Please sign me as
    Thanks for the clarification and comments

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Ken Kirschenbaum,Esq
Kirschenbaum & Kirschenbaum PC
Attorneys at Law
200 Garden City Plaza
Garden City, NY 11530
516 747 6700 x 301