Ken,
First I want to thank you for pulling together all these notes from other
companies and in some cases adding your input.
This note is of particular interest to me since we have had several
problems lately with this and another similar application. We had a client
get their phone line VOIP from cable and they also swore it would be just
like a typical POTS line. We had two major issues pop up. First was the
fact that around 5 in the morning something cycled in their local equipment
that would cause our panel to send in via our backup radio a loss of phone
service. That had to be a power supply issue and no one can seem to explain
what it was and of course we get blamed for malfunctioning alarm equipment.
The second thing that happened is they lost cable service for 2 days and
the client complained our panel did NOT report a loss of the phone line. We
have our panels set to go into trouble if the line is lost for 2+ minutes
however the detection circuit that is part of the panel is happy when it
sees either 50 volts of on hook voltage or 23 mills of off hook current.
With the VOIP equipment at this location they of course have a local power
supply so even though the client lost their cable, the panel was still
happy with the voltage and current requirements being satisfied by the
local cable power supply. Solution was to order in a POTS line and
everything is fine now. VOIP is here to stay so panel manufactures and VOIP
providers are going to have to get their heads together on this one.
The second issue is a plant we installing a system in right now brings
their phone lines in over a T1 then a modem to emulate dial tone. We can
not hold the panel on line to program it because I am assuming the time
division process puling 6 lines off one T1. Works well for voice but did
not work well for data, even at that slow 300 baud rate most companies use
on their panels. I can not prove this is the cause however the panel
programs easily on a regular phone line so here again our solution is to
get back to a pots line and one less client provided backup power supply
(UPS) to depend on in time of power loss.
Doug B
more VOIP
Hello Ken,
Here is my comment on VOIP
We are a telecommunications equipment company not an alarm specific
company. I wanted to comment on the VOIP problems that alarm vendors may
experience.
The first item is that all VOIP connections are not of equal quality. You
can have calls that range from 8k to greater than 64k per call yet most
people look at VOIP as all the same. The major problem comes from the
marketing behind VOIP. When you get a plain old telephone line or POTS line
its the same across the country this is not the case for VOIP services. We
have seen an increase in problems reported by clients that turn out to be
VOIP issues not equipment problems. As a customer of any large carrier you
need to make sure that your lines are what you order. A POTS line is
circuit switched voice connection not a VOIP line delivered to you as a
POTS line. This is also true with many T1 and PRI circuits. Today many
companies are ordering integrated circuits that deliver voice and data over
the same facility. The carrier installs an Integrated Access Device or IAD
and either strips out channels or delivers to the customer’s telephone
equipment POTS lines or a digital hand off. In many cases the carrier uses
VOIP the problem is what speed codec is being used will affect the call
quality and that will definitely affect the alarm dialers. My suggestion is
to have your clients install a dedicated primary line (POTS) for the alarm
system. VOIP in some form for the right applications is the future of
telecom but it’s like the Wild West right now and when it comes to carrier
standards there is a huge disconnect.
Regards,
Ralph Meyers
President
Nu-TEL Communications of NJ, Inc.
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Everyone could go on forever telling VoIP horror stories but the reality is
that it (VoIP) is here to stay, The alarm industry seems to be stuck on
preserving there ancient methods of transmitting alarm signals. My personal
opinion is that ALL voice calls in the US will have some VoIP component to
them within 5 years and within 10 years the term POTS won’t exist in the
local telecom’s vocabulary. >From there perspective other then alarm
systems there is no reason not to move there, it saves them millions and
millions of dollars a month.
So the real reason for this post is that I see little being done to deal
with this. Alarm panel manufactures are still producing and designing dial
up controls, there IP solutions are so expensive that they are cost
prohibitive for most simple jobs. There is no organized effort that I know
of to get a standard done that the Telco providers would be forced to
support, yes I know there have been conversations with cable co’s but
that’s just to support existing formats not to come up with a really solid
solution.
I would urge all you to push on the panel manufactures to get together to
come up with a plan for transition including lower cost IP/RF solutions,
battery backed up IP equipment for the premise, installation best
practices, a complete solution that the industry can get behind because
otherwise just like the AMPS network going away the vast majority of alarm
dealers will get caught with there pants down and not a clue what to do
about it.
Off soap box
Morgan Hertel
The Command Center Inc
Corona CA
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Response to VOIP, BARF
Remember a power outage in a home will down the modem.......so......Battery
back UP.
? NOPE the cable company also has amps/repeaters on the phone poles that
have 4 hour battery back up...oppps, wonder when the last time those
batteries were changed...?
Mike
CSS
**********************
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I want to remind everyone that the VOIP warning is part of the Disclaimer
Notice you can get at www.alarmcontracts.com
This form is so important I decided to price it well below its value so
that everyone would be encouraged to get it and hopefully use it. Do your
company a favor and get the Disclaimer Notice today.
more VOIP comments
August 18, 2006
I doubt that VoIP providers and alarm manufacturers will ever agree on any
standard. Most likely alarm manufacturers will make panels connect directly
to Internet via Ethernet RJ45 just like access control system or network
camera. The problem with this setup is that you can't download the panel
unless the customer pays for static IP address (which is expensive). We're
back where we started. Drive to the site, push buttons and count beeps at
the keypad. Security systems are the lowest of low-tech. Even the big name
systems have many bugs (most likely due to constant software revisions) and
quite often the tech support doesn't know the system well enough to help.
How many times you spent hours troubleshooting something just to find out
that it is defective? Do you get thank you from the manufacturer? You're
lucky if they give you an RMA number. You lose time, pay shipping back and
forth and your customer suffers down time and is not happy with your work.
Manufacturers never lose a penny. You pay for.
VoIP - it is not just alarm that doesn't work. Fax doesn't work either and
businesses should have at least one POTS fax line. Use it for alarm.
Dusan
********************
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Ken:
There has been MUCH discussion on the CSAA list server regarding the
problems encountered with VOIP/AOIP (alarm over IP);the programming issue
is more of an issue of non-conformity of the programming modem than speed.
I.e.; the VOIP does not like it, so, slower ain’t really better in this
case!! The solution (I know you are going to HATE me for this!!) using a
panel such as the BOSCH/RADIONICS or DMP that are able to up/down load over
IP. They each have the ability to switch from IP based to POTS based if the
IP goes down. We ALWAYS backup an IP panel with our radio (KP Electronics).
I sleep better knowing while there is a UL certificate in place with the IP
stuff, the IP stuff is NOT reliable enough (in my humble opinion) as of yet
for life- safety reporting..
With regards,
Joseph (Joe) Pfefer
Jade Alarm
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Ken,
Steve wrote to Mark, the longest diatribe that I have ever seen setting
forth his qualifications, Steve is defiantly a member of the alarm
industry! Then finally we get all the way down to the end and this is the
response after taking a swing at the "national association"?
And lastly. How many of you alarm guys are fully satisfied with your yellow
pages situation. And that pesky bill they send you for four headings each
month. Can I see a show of hands? Steve Affordable Alarms
It is obvious that Steve has not interacted with his local association or
the NBFAA! I can only assume that he is not a member of the NBFAA and when
he speaks of a "national association" it must be the group from Ohio or the
other group of states that has affiliated with disgruntled current and
former members of the NBFAA, which seems to be going nowhere.
AS for the NBFAA, the NBFAA responds (either positive or negative) to every
request that is made to it by its members. No request that I know of has
never not been given the courtesy of a response at the very least.
I invite Steve from Affordable Alarms (not cheap alarms) to contact me
directly or through this forum.
Bart A. Didden
A Past President of the NBFAA
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additional VOIP comments
August 18, 2006
Dusan,
There are several IP based products that to not require a static IP to
download, IP is in its infancy and some manufactures have not figured out
how to do this but they will. In the mean time buy those that do.
Fax is a known protocol and every VoIP provider that I know of has the
ability to provide fax capability to a VoIP customer event the non
facilities vendors like Vonage and Lingo can provide fax via there network.
Have a good weekend.
Morgan Hertel
The Command Center Inc
*********************************
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Re: comments from Dusan
The comment was made that the customer must have a Static IP address. Not
necessarily so. I install a commercial phone system that has optional VOIP
extensions for remote sites, with NO static IP at the site. Although the
setup to get past local Firewalls can sometimes drive you crazy, The only
static required is at the “head” end, and the remote site “phones home”
from a DYNAMIC IP Address!
There is no reason (except that most of the alarm industry is 10 years
behind in technology) that alarm panels could not be manufactured in the
same fashion. Imagine, a Static IP at your alarm office that all of your IP
panels call into from Dynamic addresses just as you call a web site up.
Once the connection is made, it would remain connected with a tickler to
keep the connection open. No fancy Static’s at remote locations, etc. ( How
long have we all been using the Internet this way, and no manufactures have
capitalized on it ? ) It is unfortunate that we as an industry have fallen
soooooo far behind in the technologies that are available.
That being said, I still feel that IP is a less than desirable primary
means of transmission without a backup. We experience Web outages enough
that I don’t trust it. If you have to wait a couple hours to make a voice
telephone call because the Web is down, it’s quite different than waiting a
couple of hours to transmit a fire or hold-up alarm. Use the IP for sending
open and close reports? Absolutely, because in most cases they are merely
logged to the computer anyway, and are not nearly as critical (in most
cases) as the actual alarms. I hope that this does not fall on deaf ears;
the manufactures need to start addressing technology and the features that
we need to solve our clients problems because of the advancement of other
technologies that we have to work around. Quit putting your primary
interest towards making things cheaper. I want all of us to sell more
expensive products and be able to take regular vacations like my mechanic,
plumber, and HVAC contractor !
Thomas Doyle, President
FBN Systems, Inc.
Medina, Ohio 44258
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And on the C/O issue:
Ken,
Steve with Affordable Alarms makes a lot of good points. We don't install
CO detectors. If asked, we send them to buy a plug-in unit. I agree that
these are a false sense of security. Even if they work as intended, they
are only of value if you are home. The fire department shouldn't be called
for this, as some dealers set the systems up for. And, if the intent is to
alert the people in the house, then the plug-ins work just fine. The main
problem is those dealers (read trunk slammers) that think anything they can
sell to up their profits is fair game. Professionalism is right out the
window!! The "free system" guys have brought our industry down to level of
commodity suppliers instead of service providers. Its all about numbers to
them. I remember the days when that if you were a security system provider,
you were held to a much higher standard as a professional. Now we're just
another contractor; so sad.
Mike
Atlantic Security Systems
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